My Review of the Anthem ATA Martial Arts School in Anthem, AZ

My family and I went to the Anthem ATA Martial Arts school for 2 ½ years.

In order to get into a program that would allow advancement to black belt, we had to sign a 3 year contract. There was a one-time membership fee of $1176 (we were allowed to make payments), plus 35 payments of $360 per month. This rate covered 4 family members, and subsequent family members could be added at no charge. The contract could be canceled without penalty anytime within 30 days after the date it was signed. Otherwise, the contract could only be canceled under very specific circumstances, such as permanent disability, or moving more than 25 miles away from any American Taewkondo Association (ATA) school. Our contract also had an automatic renewal clause. If one doesn’t cancel the contract at the end of the contract, the membership agreement will automatically renew for an additional 12 months, at $200 per month.

A teaching cycle lasts approximately 8 weeks. If a student has attended the required minimum number of classes (15), and is able to demonstrate the material to the instructor, the student is given permission to graduate to the next belt. In general, the student must be able to demonstrate a Songahm Taekwondo form, a weapons form, a board break (or board break combination), 1 or 2 self-defense sequences, and proficiency with a sparring combination (lower belts) or sparring (at higher belts).

Lower belts are allowed to spar. Higher belts are required to spar. Protective gear must be worn, and the amount of contact allowed is none to light contact with lower belts. Otherwise, it is dictated by what the person being hit is comfortable with (usually light to medium contact). In any event, punches to the face, or contact to the back and lower body are prohibited.

I can’t really speak to the quality of instruction, as this is the only martial arts school I have attended, but it seemed like decent martial arts training. Thankfully, I’ve never had to put it to the test in a real life situation. I have a generally positive outlook on the curriculum, especially for children. The school also teaches “Life Skills” to round out the martial arts training.

Unfortunately, I cannot recommend this school. We had a major falling out with the owners a few months back, when one of the owners treated my wife poorly multiple times in the space of a few days. We have not attended classes since. Although the co-owner promised that our contract would be cancelled, and she said there would be no hard feelings, the co-owner reneged on that promise, and we are obliged to honor the contract. Thus, I have come to the conclusion that the owners do not follow the “Life Skills” they themselves teach. The details can be found at http://www.ughfest.com.

When it comes to choosing any martial arts school, be very cautious when signing a long-term contract. Be wary of schools that include an auto-renewal clause in their contract. And finally, know that while you may initially get along with the school staff, things may go south. Don’t be like us: paying on a contract to a school you are unwelcome at.

The BBB and ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, AZ -- Unsatisfactory Conclusion

After the Llacunas responded to the Better Business Bureau, I sent a follow-up to the Better Business Bureau. Although I felt that it probably wouldn't change anything, I needed to try. The following was my response to the BBB and the Llacunas:

Better Business Bureau:
I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID 7949969, and have determined that this proposed action would not resolve my complaint. For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.

In my original complaint, I stated that on 3/23, my wife went to discuss events of the previous Saturday with Ms. Llacuna, and Ms. Llacuna “made matters worse.” To expand on that, Ms. Llacuna made several comments about our children, including saying they were “not normal,” calling them “awful,” and told my wife that they needed therapy. I have two issues with this. First, Ms. Llacuna admitted to me in a later conversation that she was upset at my wife for coming in to talk to her. It is apparent that Ms. Llacuna was expressing her anger by verbally attacking my wife through our kids, presumably to put my wife in her place. It also suggests that Ms. Llacuna has treated my wife poorly because she deserves it. I take issue with that. Second, my family had attended the school for over 2 years. Apparently, my children weren’t so “awful” that the Llacunas felt compelled to discuss their concerns about our children before that point, and the Llacunas were certainly willing to take our money and allow our “awful” kids to attend classes.

Despite the words that my wife and Ms. Llacuna exchanged on that day, a later discussion I had with Ms. Llacuna gave me hope that we would be able to reconcile and return to the school. I tried in good faith to restore our relationship, but in the end, it was apparent we couldn’t return, given Ms. Llacuna’s apparent feelings towards my wife and children.

The Llacunas offered that my family and I could train at another American Taekwondo Association (ATA) school. Setting aside for the moment the fact that Ms. Llacuna agreed to cancel our contract in March, I have three additional objections. First, our contract is between us and the Llacunas’ school, not between us and all American Taekwondo Association-affiliated schools in the area. Second, I do not necessarily wish to attend another ATA-affiliated school, given the difficulties we have had with this school. Third, and most importantly, why would the Llacunas wish to inflict our “awful” kids upon another school, if they were so bad that Ms. Llacuna felt compelled to lash out to my wife about them? The answer seems obvious: to collect money on a contract that the Llacunas no longer provide services for.

I do not seek a refund for the almost 2 ½ years we dedicated to the school. We learned, made friends, competed in tournaments, and had an enjoyable experience. I want Ms. Llacuna to cancel our contract as she promised, and I want a refund for the money I have been obligated to pay since March, when she agreed to the cancellation. This is an opportunity for the owners to demonstrate the Lifeskills they profess to teach, to demonstrate integrity, and honor their word. Anything less reduces the Lifeskills they teach to some sort of punch line; a cheap gimmick to get prospective students to sign on the dotted line.

Regards,

Paul Hancock

Predictably, my appeal has fallen upon deaf ears. I have received the following from the Better Business Bureau:

Dear Paul Hancock :

Better Business Bureau of Central, Northern & Western Arizona (BBB) has communicated your most recent correspondence to ATA Martial Arts.


At this time, it is noted that the business’s position has not changed. After careful review of this case, BBB has determined that the company has addressed the issues you presented by either making a reasonable offer to resolve the complaint, or by explaining why it could not practically meet your desired resolution.


Please note BBB considers this dispute to be at an impasse, and is unable to facilitate the matter further. We understand you may not be completely satisfied with the outcome of our efforts. Because of this, BBB has closed your case to reflect your dissatisfaction with the end result.


We would like to thank you for sharing your experience with BBB. Be assured your dispute will remain in BBB files for three years as part of the company’s customer experience record. BBB will monitor the company's file for reports of a similar nature; if a pattern develops, BBB will be able to modify the company’s record more specifically, referring to the information you have provided.
Sincerely,
Esenia Solano
Your Better Business Bureau

Whether the Llacunas' offer was "reasonable" is open to debate, but by failing to honor her word, Mrs. Llacuna has demonstrated that while the school teaches Life Skills, the owners don't necessarily feel compelled to practice what they teach. It is hypocritical.

Still Persuing a Remedy - Better Business Bureau

I'm still trying to get the contract cancellation I was promised by one of the owners of ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona. After not getting anywhere with the American Taekwondo Association (ATA) parent organization, I filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. The ATA Martial Arts owners responded to the complaint on August 14th:

To: [my family] and the BBB;

With all due respect, Sirs and Ma'am, our policy has always been to teach; Lifeskills and marital arts. Our goal is to encourage people to improve themselves both physically and mentally. When [my family] committed to working with us they committd to learning the Lifeskills we teach, i.e. Respect, Discipline, Honesty and Honor. If we have failed in teaching that so be it. With that in mind; in our agreement there is and always has been a clause stating that any of our students for any reason may continue their training at any ATA school in the nation. They are not restricted to training with just us. There is a school located at 5830 W. Thunderbird Rd #B11 in Glendale and another located at 6740 W. Deer Valley Rd. D-106 in Glendale. The entire family is welcome to train at either of these two schools to make up the missed time at our school and any remaining time on their contracts.

Respectfully,
Mr. and Mrs. "Jay" "Ell"

The only change I've made to the above letter is that I substituted the names. I transcribed it from a hard copy letter, and did not try to clean up grammar.

I have responded back to the business and the BBB, rejecting the response, and providing reasons why. I will post that response here at a later time, if things go as I suspect they will.

One point I did not make with the BBB is the assertion the Ells made about their agreement: "in our agreement there is and always has been a clause stating that any of our students for any reason may continue their training at any ATA school in the nation." I read the copy of the one page agreement we have, and it says nothing of the sort.

Stay tuned.

Conversations With American Taekwondo Association In Regards To ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona

It has been a while since I last posted. My anger kept me focused on warning people about the kind of business ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona is, and what you can expect from its owners. Unfortunately, that anger could not be contained. It spilled into other aspects of my life, contaminating my life as a whole. So, I've needed to take a breath, and let my anger cool a bit. Staying angry lowers the quality of my life. My anger won't change the people involved, and at the end of the day, the situation is what it is. On the other hand, I don't want to let it drop completely. It's important to know what one can run into with this Taekwondo school, prior to signing a long-term contract with them!

I exchanged a series of emails with a representative of the American Taekwondo Association (ATA). Those emails are below, edited to remove personally identifiable information.

From: "Mr. Jay"
Subject: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 9:19 AM

Good morning Paul. "Mr. Ell" and his staff would be the ones to address and resolve any concerns you may have. The American Taekwondo Association (ATA) is an association through the licensing of its Songahm forms and related material only. "Mr. Ell" has an individually owned and operated business, he and his staff would be the ones to assist you with your concern. The ATA would not have anything to do with tuition contracts. That would be an agreement between yourself and that particular business owner for certain services which they will provide you.

I would like to forward your email email to "Mr. Ell" so he may review your concerns. As a part of the community I am sure he would like to know if there is a concern with one of this consumers. If you would provide me with your best contact number; I will contact you to review your concerns. I may be contacted if you have any additional questions. Thank you for your time once again.

"Mr. Jay"
ATA/WTTU/STF International Headquarters

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Mr. Jay"
Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:24 PM

Thank you for your response, "Mr. Jay."

I did not think ATA would be able to help, but I wanted to give the organization an opportunity to respond.

Feel free to forward my message on, but none of this should be news to the "Ells."

It looks like I'm pretty much stuck, and will do what I can to warn people, in the hopes that others won't have to experience this sort of issue.

My work number is 602-xxx-xxxx, and my cell number is 623-xxx-xxxx.

Paul

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Mr. Jay"
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 10:07 AM

I wanted to send a quick email to let you know that I received your voicemail yesterday. I don't feel right about making personal long distance telephone calls on my employer's dime, which is why I did not call back.

My cell phone coverage in the office isn't so good, but I can go for a walk during lunch and give you a call then, if you prefer.

From: "Mr. Jay"
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Paul"
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 11:10 AM

Thank you for taking the time to speak with me today sir. If you would like ATA to send your email to The "Ells" just let me know sir.

"Mr. Jay"
ATA/WTTU/STF International Headquarters

We had a brief phone conversation. "Mr. Jay" explained that what ATA licenses is the Songahm forms, and that the school agrees to teach those forms. Other than that, the school is under no further obligation from ATA. The school can, but does not have to, use the 'ATA' name. The rest of their curriculum can be whatever the instructor feels is appropriate. And apparently, if a school treats a customer poorly, there isn't a lot ATA can do about it.

"Mr. Jay" asked whether he wanted me to forward my email to the "Ells." I initially told him that it probably wouldn't do any good and not to worry about it. But I soon changed my mind.

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Mr. Jay"
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 11:22 AM

At the risk of sounding indecisive, if you are willing to contact the "Ells" on my behalf, I would appreciate it. It's worth a try, at least.

I had given up on getting the contract cancelled. While I had not contacted the Better Business Bureau (it didn't occur to me), I have seen an attorney, who sent them a letter (it was ignored), and have gotten to the point of picketing the school, and starting a web site about this whole thing.

I am embarrassed to say, however, that I didn't talk to "Mr. Ell" directly, based on perhaps faulty assumptions. Our issue is with "Ms. Ell," and I understood that she dealt with everything related to contracts. "Mr. Ell" knew that there was an issue, and I assumed that he had left this situation in her hands to deal with. In short, I assumed they were in agreement.

I appreciate how quickly you responded to my email, and thank you for explaining the relationship between the ATA and its schools. It has been a pleasure talking with you.

In the previous email, I share a regret for not talking to "Mr. Ell" directly. My regret stems from not giving him the opportunity to intervene or to tell me directly that they can treat their contracted customers however they wish.

From: "Mr. Jay"
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Paul"
Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 7:42 AM

God morning sir. I was just checking back to see if "Mr. Ell" had spoken to you?

"Mr. Jay"
ATA/WTTU/STF International Headquarters

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Mr. Jay"
Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 10:02 PM

Good evening, "Mr. Jay." "Mr. Ell" has not spoken with me.

Thanks for following up with me.

Paul

From: "Mr. Jay"
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Paul"
Date: Thursday, June 4, 2009, 1:01 PM

I just wanted to stay in touch with you sir. I just spoke to "Mr. Ell" and said he is aware of the incident. I did forward your concern to him for his review. I asked him to email you and Cc me as well. I hope this will help resolve your concern sir.

"Mr. Jay"
ATA/WTTU/STF International Headquarters

From: "Mr. Jay"
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Paul"
Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 3:54 PM
Good evening sir. I apologize for the delay as I was out of the office for a couple of days. Have the "Ells" contacted you sine we last emailed? I was able to speak to "Mr. Ell." He has seen your email sir. I hope this will help you in regards to your concern.

"Mr. Jay"
ATA/WTTU/STF International Headquarters

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Mr. Jay"
Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 10:21 PM

No, "Mr. Jay," I have not yet heard from the "Ells."

Thanks for following up.

Paul

From: Paul
Subject: Re: Tuition cancellation/Parent concern
To: "Mr. Jay"
Date: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 1:31 PM

"Mr. Ell" has apparently decided not to contact me.

Thank you for trying, "Mr. Jay." I appreciate it.

Paul

And that's where things stand for now. On one hand, I appreciate that an ATA representative has been trying to assist. On the other hand, this school carries the ATA name... not exactly the sort of advertisement I'd want if I were the ATA.

The Letter

I am sending the following letter (and email) to the American Taekwondo Association (ATA), of which ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona is a member. The co-owner's name has been replaced with "Kay."

Dear Sir or Madam:

We are under contract with ATA Martial Arts, located at 4235 W. Opportunity Way, Suite 100, Anthem, AZ 85086. We have had a series of unsatisfactory interactions with the school manager and co-owner, "Kay."

On March 21, 2009, my wife was testing for her black belt. My mother-in-law, children, and I were in attendance for this important event. At one point, the floor judges were organizing board breaking stations. There was no active testing in progress. Kay felt the children in the spectator area were being too loud, and came over to quiet them. She literally screamed at one of my children.

My mother-in-law was standing in the proximity of the children, and was shocked by Kay’s behavior. She also noted that much of the noise in the area was coming from directly in front of her – from the black belt kids sitting on the mat awaiting the start of board breaks.

Testing ended, and my wife successfully tested for her black belt. As I was getting the kids ready to leave, Kay thrust one of her fingers towards my wife, and rudely told my wife: “You need to school your kids.”

On March 23rd, my wife went to the school to discuss Saturday’s issues with Kay. Far from defusing the situation, Kay made matters worse. At the conclusion of her meeting with Kay, my wife indicated to me that she was never going back to ATA Martial Arts in Anthem.

On March 26th, I went to the school to ask Kay to cancel our contract. She agreed to do so, but requested a follow-up conversation with my wife. She indicated that she would cancel our contract regardless of whether my wife came back to speak with her.

On March 30th, my wife and I had a follow-up conversation with Kay. My wife and I were not impressed with her attitude and bearing. It became apparent that my family would not be able to return to the school. I called Kay later that evening to confirm that we wished to cancel our contract. Kay confirmed to me that she would do so.

Later that evening, my wife received an email from Kay. Kay indicated that she would not cancel the contract as she had previously committed. Kay’s justification was that my wife had posted a couple of private comments on Facebook. The comments were not inflammatory.

I would appreciate it if our contract were cancelled, as Kay originally agreed. Kay’s unprofessional behavior has insured that my family will not return, and it seems inherently unjust to continue paying the school for a situation Kay fostered and exacerbated.

I look forward to your reply, and an acceptable resolution to this issue. Please contact me at the above address or by email at xxxx@xxx.com.

A Review of the Weekend

First, I'd like to congratulate the students that tested and/or graduated to new belts this weekend. Way to go! I trust that "Kay" was better behaved than she was two months ago, and that everyone got to enjoy their accomplishments without the manager being rude or otherwise unprofessional.

I picketed ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona on Friday and Saturday afternoon. I stood outside the school for a while, and then out on Anthem Way (the closest major artery street) for a time.

A few people spoke with me. One of them commented on Kay's outbursts, and said that their family would not renew their contract. That student also talked about how they don't want to rock the boat.

I agree that "rocking the boat" is a risky proposition, particularly given the personality involved. I certainly understand the reluctance. I would not have imagined myself standing outside the school with a sign a few weeks ago. I've never seen myself as the activist, picketing sort. This is out of character for me. Then again, I don't appreciate how my family has been treated.

"Kay" also came out for a few moments. She said that she was just curious, read the sign, commented on its creativity, and went back inside. As she was headed back, she invited me to come inside if I got too hot outside.

Thanks to everyone who stopped by to say a few words.

Someone asked whether I have contacted the parent ATA organization. I have not. Based on what I've read, the parent organization will most likely just tell me to deal with the owners. Then again, I should give the parent ATA organization an opportunity to respond, so I will send them both a letter and an email soon.

ATA Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona: When a Good Relationship Goes Bad

I received my black belt from American Taekwondo Association (ATA) Martial Arts in Anthem, Arizona in January 2009. I enjoyed the black belt classes even more than the color belt classes. I liked the new black belt form – so much, in fact, that I learned the whole form during my first black belt cycle, even though I was just required to learn half of the form. I was excited to learn some joint locks. Even the weapons form was okay, though weapons forms are not my favorite. I enjoyed class so much that I attended more classes during that 1st cycle as a black belt than any other cycle before.

I looked forward to the next cycle even more. We would be learning ground fighting, which could be useful. But more importantly, my wife, Kylie, was testing for her black belt. If she passed testing, we would both be black belts. I was really looking forward to working with her on the black belt material. It was my chance to help her for a change, since I started the black belt material a cycle earlier. Once she had her black belt, we planned to work with our oldest two kids to get their black belts.

Unfortunately, the Saturday of black belt testing is where our relationship with ATA Martial Arts in Anthem took a turn for the worse.

There were two incidents of concern. In the first, the owner and chief instructor of ATA Martial Arts in Anthem was waiting for the floor judges to organize board breaking stations for that part of the testing. There was no active testing in progress. The owner’s wife, the manager, program director and co-owner of ATA Martial Arts, a 1st degree black I’ll call ‘Kay’, felt that the children in the spectator area were being too loud, and came over to quiet them down. She ended up literally screaming at one of our kids.

My mother-in-law, who was standing right there, was taken aback and was shocked by Kay’s behavior. The kids in the spectator area were behind my mother-in-law, and she noted that a lot of the noise in her proximity was coming from directly in front of her -- from the black belt kids sitting on the mat awaiting the start of board breaks.

In any event, testing continued. Kylie had successfully tested for her black belt! After years of work, she made it, and she was very happy. Kylie’s happiness was short-lived. As we were getting ready to leave, Kay thrust a finger towards Kylie, and rudely told Kylie that she “needed to school her kids.”

Instead of Kylie being able to enjoy her accomplishment, she was instead thinking about Kay, and Kay’s unprofessional behavior. The two events became linked. Kylie was cheated out of her moment as a new black belt, unable to enjoy her accomplishment.

Kylie went to the school on Monday morning to talk to Kay about what had happened. The goal was to try to insure that the negative events of the Saturday before would not recur. Up until that conversation, the situation was completely salvageable. At the conclusion of Kylie’s meeting with Kay, Kylie called me, crying. Given how the conversation with Kay went, Kylie indicated that she would not return to the school. Under the circumstances, we did not feet comfortable bringing our kids back to the school, either.

I went back to the school on Thursday, and asked Kay to release us from our contract. Kay agreed to do so. Kay and I also talked, and there seemed to be a possibility that my family would not have to break ties with the school after all. Kay asked to speak to Kylie again. At the conclusion of our discussion, Kay asked whether she should go ahead and cancel our contract. Given Kay’s willingness to cancel the contract if we wished it, and my hope that we would not have to leave the school, I wanted to first see if things could be worked out.

Kylie and I went back to the school a few days later to speak with Kay. I had pretty high hopes. My conversation with Kay a few days earlier seemed productive. When Kylie and I met with Kay that day, the conversation was a lot different.

Kay was aloof. Kay was judgmental. Kay did not seem at all receptive to talking to Kylie or me. Kay kept repeating that if we left, there would be no hard feelings. Kay did not seem to care if we stayed or left. Kay’s demeanor was completely different with Kylie in the room. I was a little shocked.

Kylie and I discussed our latest conversation with Kay and the situation in general. It became apparent that we needed to leave the school. Kylie was not comfortable going back to the school. We didn’t want to bring the kids back. I certainly didn’t like how Kay treated my wife or kids. After discussing the matter, we decided that we should ask Kay to cancel the contract. I called Kay that evening, and she agreed to do so.

Later that evening, Kay sent an email to Kylie stating that she would not release us from our contract as she had previously committed. Kylie posted a couple of private comments on Facebook that were shared with Kay. Kay accused Kylie of slander, and elected to use that as justification for her decision to break her word to let us out of the contract. Kylie’s comments were no big deal, which leads me to believe that Kay was just using the Facebook comments as a pretext to break her word, when it became apparent that we did not want to come back to the school. In other words, it looks like the willingness to cancel our contract was just a ploy.

So, where does that leave us? We are paying on a $360 a month contract to a Taekwondo school that my wife and kids will no longer attend, due to Kay’s unprofessional, demeaning, and rude behavior.

I’ve kept quiet up until now. In the beginning, it was my (naïve) hope that we could come an understanding, and me and my family would be able to go back to classes. With that hope dashed, I wanted out. I did not want to make a big deal out of it, make waves, or air dirty laundry. Even after Kay indicated that she would not let us out of the contract as she said she would, I remained silent. I hoped that she would reconsider her position. I had a great deal of goodwill for the school, having attended and enjoyed classes for the past couple of years.

I’m stuck, but the least I can do is share my experiences with you, in the hopes that you don’t get caught in a similar situation.

Please consider the following when selecting a martial arts school:

• Think long and hard before signing a 3 year contract with any school. Three years is a loooong time. Even if you’ve been at a school a while, a good thing can go bad quickly. I have lived that first hand. In the case of our ATA contract, there is no “out,” unless you move more than 25 miles away from any ATA school. You are at the mercy of the school owner, and as a student under contract, you are guaranteed money for the owner(s). Don’t assume that the school’s management will do the right thing. She might just decide to profit from her own bad behavior. 


• Our contract contains an auto-renewal clause, which means it can be automatically renewed by the school for another year, unless we specifically tell the school that we do not wish to renew. I feel that this is a shady business practice. It’s pretty likely that you won’t remember the auto-renewal stipulation after 3 years, and you could be on the hook for an additional year, just because you failed to “opt out” of the renewal. A reputable, high quality school should not have to rely on such measures to keep students, and one should wonder about schools that employ such provisions in a contract.
  


• Talk to the parents and students that have been at the martial arts school you are interested in. Ask about their experiences. But keep in mind that those parents and students may be under contract, so you may not necessarily get a direct answer.
  

My hope is that you not get caught up in a similar situation that we find ourselves in.